D
dansushi
Member
English - USA
- Jul 5, 2010
- #1
In this example, should the subjunctive be used? Is it:
They require that all activity is logged.
OR
They require that all activity be logged.
And if so, why is the subjunctive necessary?
S
soccergal
Senior Member
English - US
- Jul 5, 2010
- #2
Be
It needs to be subjunctive because just because it is required, there is no guarantee of compliance.
e2efour
Senior Member
England (aged 79)
UK English
- Jul 5, 2010
- #3
I would say "They require all activity to be logged." No subjunctive!
JuanEscritor
Senior Member
Minnesota
English - AmE
- Jul 5, 2010
- #4
Quite honestly, the subjunctive is so close to dead in English that I cannot think of a single instance in which its use is still obligatory. Only in the most formal of register can I see it mattering, and even then I'd assume that most of the folk who use it aren't quite sure what they are doing.
In other words, both of your sentences are fine, though the latter sounds more formal.
JE
ABE: As e2efour points out, there is yet a third option, which is probably more natural for most than either of the first two.
A
arueng
Senior Member
Chinese
- Jul 5, 2010
- #5
dansushi said:
In this example, should the subjunctive be used? Is it:
They require that all activity is logged.
OR
They require that all activity be logged.
And if so, why is the subjunctive necessary?
Yes. It's because there is a "should" omitted in the original. This is what I learned from the grammar book.
They require that all activity (should) be logged.
There are other similar instances:
They moved that the meeting ( should ) be adjourned!
The general ordered that the soldier (should) be put to prison.
JuanEscritor
Senior Member
Minnesota
English - AmE
- Jul 5, 2010
- #6
arueng said:
Yes. It's because there is a "should" omitted in the original. This is what I learned from the grammar book.
I imagine this was something told to you to help you determine where English might use the subjunctive, but I assure you that in reality the use of the subjunctive is not triggered by the removal of should.
They require that all activity (should) be logged.
There are other similar instances:
They moved that the meeting ( should ) be adjourned!
The general ordered that the soldier (should) be put to prison.
Likewise, we can use could, or can,or would, or... many other replacements for should are possible. Which one is the one that was 'originally' there and has been removed? Answer? None of them: the subjunctive is a verb form in its own right, even if just a corpse, and not the bastardized result of some fragmented phrase.
JE
Last edited:
panjandrum
Senior Member
Belfast, Ireland
English-Ireland (top end)
- Jul 5, 2010
- #7
Please keep the discussion to this specific example.
There are other threads on the general topic of subjunctives and this particular discussion has been run several times.
M
mplsray
Senior Member
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
English, USA
- Jul 6, 2010
- #8
dansushi said:
In this example, should the subjunctive be used? Is it:
They require that all activity is logged.
OR
They require that all activity be logged.
And if so, why is the subjunctive necessary?
This is one of those things which strongly distinguishes American English from British English. "They require that all activity is logged" is possible in British English. That form is very unlikely, however, in American English, no matter what register of speech. As mentioned, it could be "They require that all activity be logged" (using the subjunctive be) or "They require all activity to be logged" (without that and using the to-marked infinitive form to be).
A
arueng
Senior Member
Chinese
- Jul 6, 2010
- #9
JuanEscritor said:
I imagine this was something told to you to help you determine where English might use the subjunctive, but I assure you that in reality the use of the subjunctive is not triggered by the removal of should.
Likewise, we can use could, or can,or would, or... many other replacements for should are possible. Which one is the one that was 'originally' there and has been removed? Answer? None of them: the subjunctive is a verb form in its own right, even if just a corpse, and not the bastardized result of some fragmented phrase.
JE
Thanks for the info, JE.
And I learned many things that weren't taught in the classroom.
Here is one of the many references to mandative subjunctive. Check it out: http://ucrel.lancs.ac.uk/publications/cl2003/CL2001 conference/papers/serpolle.pdf
mplsray said:
This is one of those things which strongly distinguishes American English from British English. "They require that all activity is logged" is possible in British English. That form is very unlikely, however, in American English, no matter what register of speech. As mentioned, it could be "They require that all activity be logged" (using the subjunctive be) or "They require all activity to be logged" (without that and using the to-marked infinitive form to be).
Thanks, mplsray.
I'm surprised but you're right about it. Check out the link above.
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